January 12, 2018

"A wretched place... (a) a dirty or dilapidated dwelling; (b) a remote, downtrodden, or unpleasant city, town, etc."

That's the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "shithole," with examples going back to 1930:
1930 A. M. Frey Cross Bearers xxxiv. 249 But that will soon be over, he hopes; over as soon as he can get out of this ‘shit-hole’—the soldiers' term which the officers adopt.
1935 B. Creighton tr. ‘B. Traven’ Treasure of Sierra Madre (new ed.) xiii. iv. 193 Come out there from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.
c1947 T. Shibutani Derelicts of Company K (1978) v. 200 How come..we have to live in this shit hole?...
1973 W. Crawford Gunship Commander 11 I have already spent four miserable, rotten years of my life in that shit-hole and I am not going back.
"Shithole" to refer to a place seems to have originated in the military. I see it's in the novel "High Fidelity" (1995) by Nick Hornby: "And I moved when I was eighteen, so I only spent a year seeing the place for what it was—a suburban shit-hole—and hating it." That makes it sound like pretty normal guy talk, so why are we acting all puritanical about it now?

It was said by the President of the United States, but at a private meeting, where I presume he, like many Presidents before him, says "fuck" and other bad words all the time. We know Nixon did. LBJ did.

So what is the big deal? The big deal is that it's racist. Supposedly. That's in the mind of the hearer, as the hearer really hears it or chooses to speak of it, and the motivations there are not untainted. Anything about Trump that can be called racist, will be called racist, but Trump said (we're told) "shithole countries," and "shithole," in this context means a wretched place. Is Haiti not a wretched place? There are connotations of dirtiness, obviously, but more notably, that the place is just awful, not that the people are bad in some way because of their race. There's enough reason to think of Haiti as dilapidated and downtrodden without needing to start assuming that there's something about the people because of their race. Perhaps the racism is in the mind of the person who hears "shithole" about the country and starts thinking about the race of the people who live there.

Anyway, "shithole" also means "anus," and that meaning is very old, going back to the 1600s: "Six shitten shotes did I shoote in thy mowth that I shot from my shithole." Yikes. Someone published that in 1629. "Shithole" also means "latrine." The oldest published usage is in the military context: c1947 T. Shibutani "Derelicts of Company K": "I hear Mike and Joey fell in a shit hole last night!"

"Shithole" can also refer to a person. It's just exactly the same thing as saying "asshole," which isn't a racist epithet. The OED examples go back to 1974: "Hey, shithole,..get the hell out of here." From the cool novel by Katherine Dunn, "Geek Love" (1989): " We protect children because they have not yet proven themselves to be hamstrung shitholes."

And there's this from "BAD/Or, the Dumbing of America," the 1992 book by the great Paul Fussell: "They have a name for their members obliged to cover BAD places: shithole specialists."

"Shithole" is a perfectly good rude, slangy word. It has a great history, and it's vivid and effective. It is not a racial term, and shame on the people who are making it racist. I wonder if these people ever think of the pain and damage they are causing by proclaiming and insisting upon a connection between dark skin and excrement. They're revealing what's in their head, and they don't mind burdening dark-skinned people with the knowledge that they are being thought about like that.

I'm giving this post my "civility bullshit" tag. You know what that means? It means that calls for civility are always bullshit.

312 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 312 of 312
Rusty said...

Inga said...
"Why do we want all these people from 'shithole countries' coming here?"

"PEOPLE. People from the entire continent of Africa. People from Haiti. People from El Salvador.

You Trumpists live in the shitholes that are in your hearts and minds."

One step further, Inga.
What makes them shitholes?
You can do it.

Jupiter said...

Tim at large said...
"What is really funny is all of the comments about “Why would Norwegians even come
here?” with the implicit (“their country is not a shithole”) left out."

Well, but, they're working on it.
https://www.thelocal.no/20160112/norway-security-agency-muslim-immigration-brings-problems

Gahrie said...

Said French and English Americans at the arrival of the famine fleeing Irish

Yeah...what we should have done instead was to create an organized system of immigration that welcomed millions of poor people from all over the world. We could have set up an immigration center on an island off New York to process those immigrants.

We could have stood out from the vast majority of nations in the world by our willingness to accept every other country's poor and unfortunate...which might have inspired somebody to create a monument to commemorate our willingness.

Tim at large said...

Not to mention the Dutch in New Amsterdam, when the more numerous English changed the name to New York City

There is a great book called “Nathaniel’s Nutmeg” which tells the story of the deal between the Dutch and the English, based on a lot of ship’s logs, and other documentary sources, which also includes an appearance by Ninja pirates, who, it turned out made a tactical error and found that their warlike arts were no match for a cannon filled with metal debris and silverware. It was kind of like the scene from Indiana Jones, except with a canon.

Inga said...

“Yeah...what we should have done instead was to create an organized system of immigration that welcomed millions of poor people from all over the world. We could have set up an immigration center on an island off New York to process those immigrants.

We could have stood out from the vast majority of nations in the world by our willingness to accept every other country's poor and unfortunate...which might have inspired somebody to create a monument to commemorate our willingness.”
_______________________
Would they be welcomed today?

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gahrie said...

Would they be welcomed today?

Probably not. Things have changed an awful lot in the last 100 years. That's the point. The U.S. no longer has the need or the capacity to absorb large numbers of illiterate, unskilled laborers from other countries.

Vance said...

Two questions, Inga: Does everyone in the world, no matter their country of origin, have a right to come to America?

Question 2: If not, then what's the criteria to keep the unwanted out?

I suppose we should ask another question: If everyone in the world does have a right to come to America, why don't we just conquer the world and then they can be American in their own cities and towns?

--Vance

PS I'd love to hear Chuck to answer the same questions.

Inga said...

Or would we be hearing this?

"We should never have let these scum into our country.”

Jupiter said...

Inga said...
"Would they be welcomed today?"

Not by me. What the Hell is it with you? Are you really incapable of separating the question of "What gives me a warm fuzzy feeling?" from the question of "What is good for the country and my fellow citizens?". Imagine that ten thousand people are going to be settled in the homes all around you. Do you care what language they speak? What attitudes they have to property and women's rights? Christ, you get upset when we call you names in these comments. Wait until you meet your new neighbors, who like to rip your clothes off and fuck you in the ass while they call you names.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3395390/The-Arabic-gang-rape-Taharrush-phenomenon-sees-women-surrounded-groups-men-crowds-sexually-assaulted-spread-Europe.html

Gahrie said...

@Inga:

The basic point you are missing, or don't understand, or don't care about is that the U.S. immigration system should be designed to do what is best for America, and not what is best for non-Americans. The world's population is not our responsibility and has no "right" to come here.

exiledonmainstreet said...

I knew an older man in DC who rented out a spare room in his home (which was about 2 blocks away from the National Cathedral) to foreign, usually Asian, American University students. He really didn’t need the money and didn’t charge very much for rent but he enjoyed having company after his wife died and liked sharing meals with the young people, who often did the cooking and made dishes from their own countries. He posted a notice on a bulletin board at the university. Once, a guy applied who was not a student, but a cab driver. He was from Afghanistan. The owner told me he didn’t last long there, because the Afghan didn’t bother to close the bathroom door when he was using it, even when he was on the toilet, and did stuff like standing alongside the tub and spraying himself with water using the shower hose. He sprayed everything else in the bathroom with water too. My friend demonstrated the proper use of a shower hose (ie, standing in the tub, not next to it). It didn’t take. The owner tried and failed to and get the guy to clean up after himself and close the damn door. One day the owner noticed the second floor of his home stunk and found poop on the renter’s bathroom floor. He lied and told the Afghan that his (the owner’s) very ill father was coming to live with him and he needed the spare room. And the owner vowed to never again rent to an Afghan. I guess it was racist of him to want to avoid renting to someone who did not know how to use a modern bathroom. The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans he normally rented the room to did not have that problem (in fact, the Japanese were a little shocked that the toilet and the bathtub were right next to each other. They thought it unsanitary.)

Tim at large said...

We should never have let these scum into our country.

The thing is that it is our right as a nation, like that of every other nation, to make decisions about immigration. You want immigration because you feel like that will finally get enough Democrat votes so that compromise with the deplorables will never be needed, and you won’t lose any more presidential elections.

Excuse me if other people would like to discuss this issue more fully.

Inga said...

“Wait until you meet your new neighbors, who like to rip your clothes off and fuck you in the ass while they call you names.”

Some of your relatives?

Vance said...

No, Inga: they are people you want here, people you say it's racist and Islamphobic to deny coming here. You must want them to be here raping you, because you think keeping them out is evil. And we know that they will come and rape wome--no matter where in the world they are. You want them here. You must want the consequences.

Logic. Use it, sometimes. Agitating for rapists to come here by the millions when you know they are rapists must mean that you want them here to rape.

--Vance

exiledonmainstreet said...

"Would they be welcomed today?"

They weren't welcomed from about 1924 until 1965. Not on a mass scale.

You've been told before that when America no longer needed mass immigration, it stopped. There is precedence for it.

It apparently just can't sink into your brainless head.

exiledonmainstreet said...


"Some of your relatives?"

Vance's relatives aren't Muslim.

Tim at large said...

In those days, when that poem was written and affixed to a statue that was a gift from France, and was about “liberty,” not immigration, we had a largely empty continent.

Let’s not pretend that we are in a much more zero sum situation today, especially given that automation reduces the need for unskilled labor daily.

Why do we need all of this unskilled labor again? Combines harvest wheat, corn, etc. Factories are run by people with the skills to manage robots, etc. The only real purpose of this immigration is to drive down the wages of the working poor, and the harvest of. votes for the Democrats.

Tim at large said...

t apparently just can’t sink into your brainless head.

It’s motivated reasoning. She can’t see past the haul of Democrat votes.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"You want immigration because you feel like that will finally get enough Democrat votes so that compromise with the deplorables will never be needed, and you won’t lose any more presidential elections."

That's what is so irritating about this matter. That is the ONLY reason Inga and the Dems want mass immigration - the sob stories are just a smokescreen.

But they are not honest enough to admit it.

The constant lying, while pretending to have the moral high ground, is what makes Dems such a contemptible bunch of shitholes.

exiledonmainstreet said...

The only real purpose of this immigration is to drive down the wages of the working poor, and the harvest of. votes for the Democrats.

1/12/18, 1:58 PM

And to add to the welfare rolls.

Democrats love the poor. They make so many of them.

Or, as Glenn Reynolds says, "Make them all beggars and they'll be easier to please."

Jonny Scrum-half said...

Prof. Althouse - I'm late to the comment thread, so I don't know if this was covered earlier, but I want to respond to your statement that it's ambiguous whether referring to "shithole" countries is racist.

The problem with Trump's statement isn't that he used a vulgar word, or even that he referred to countries (which generally are in pretty bad shape) as "shitholes." Rather, the issue is that he questioned why we're accepting people from those "shithole" countries, and wondered why we don't take more people from Norway. That's the racist part.

Really, don't you see it?

Almaron Dickinson said...

Dear Althouse, thanks for the very interesting historical ANALysis.

Tim at large said...

Really, don't you see it?

Why, because Norway is not a shithole? What we need are educated immigrants who can work in a technologically advanced economy, not more bait to be replaced by automation due to lack of education and skills.

Really, Don’t you see it? Or is everything reducible to black and white with you?

wildswan said...

The immigration policy at the first Thanksgiving in Plimoth was that Pilgrims wanted everyone not a Pilgrim to be deported to Virginia, a known heresyhole filled with the irreligious and Episcopalians
The previous year the immigration policy was that everyone not a Pilgrim arrested the ship captain and demanded to be taken to Virginia so as to avoid having to live in the Plimoth Pilgrimhole.
History is filled with examples.

Tim at large said...

Right now a big bet is being placed by people with the money to make such bets that self-driving cabs are the wave of the future? What are these immigrants going to do then? What jobs await them? Programmers for self-driving cabs? Robotic manufacturing installation engineers? What?

Jupiter said...

Jonny Scrum-half said...
"Prof. Althouse - I'm late to the comment thread, so I don't know if this was covered earlier,"

That's why the earlier comments are available online. For you to read. Before you give us the benefit of your earnest cogitations.

Tim at large said...

I would like to hear just one of our moral betters lecturing us on racism, xenophobia, and plain old bigotry to explain in simple terms:

Why does America need a large influx of unskilled labor.

Failing that, maybe you can explain why America is obligated to take an influx of labor it doesn’t need?

Inga said...

“Prof. Althouse - I'm late to the comment thread, so I don't know if this was covered earlier, but I want to respond to your statement that it's ambiguous whether referring to "shithole" countries is racist.

The problem with Trump's statement isn't that he used a vulgar word, or even that he referred to countries (which generally are in pretty bad shape) as "shitholes." Rather, the issue is that he questioned why we're accepting people from those "shithole" countries, and wondered why we don't take more people from Norway. That's the racist part.

Really, don't you see it?”
—————————————-
Precisely!

I said basically the same thing upthread.

“He wasn’t just insulting the country, he was denigrating the PEOPLE from those countries who are seeking protections to allow them to stay here. What is being lost here is the context in which he was used the term. He doesn’t want people who need to get away from ” shithole” countries the most. He’d rather have Norwegians who live in a wonderful country that don’t need haven from a shithole.

“The backdrop: The stunning comments were reportedly made during an Oval Office meeting on immigration, where Trump argued against restoring protections for people who arrived in the U.S. from those countries. The White House later put out a response to the Post report clarifying Trump's position, without denying that he made that comment.”

1/12/18, 10:47 AM

Tim at large said...

So why do we need a wave of unskilled, uneducated labor then Inga? What is the reason for that?

phunktor said...

This episode gives each of us the opportunity to gauge the depth of our fnordliness. How easy is it for you to avoid the question "why is Haiti so much worse than its neighbor the Dominican Republic?"?

Some deplorable racists claim this has something to do with the extermination of white and mixed people from the Haitian part of the island at the time of the successful slave revolt.

All undoubleplusungood people of course recoil from this vile question.

Inga said...

“So why do we need a wave of unskilled, uneducated labor then Inga? What is the reason for that?”

They’re already here.

Vance said...

Inga avoiding the question, but admitting that all the outrage is just an attempt to smear Trump as a racist since we all know that we do not want to have unlimited migration from Haiti. It is, after all, a dystopian disaster of the Clinton's making.

What I find racist, Inga, is your view that we need to import Haitians over Norwegians because Haitians are black. That's totally racist.

--Vance

Jupiter said...

Inga said...
“Wait until you meet your new neighbors, who like to rip your clothes off and fuck you in the ass while they call you names.”

"Some of your relatives?"

I am glad that you are beginning to see the importance of inquiring into the genetic background of potential immigrants. You might want to find out about the size of their dicks, too. You may need some stitches back there.

Martin said...

In politics, calls for civility are just another way of saying "Shut up."

Tim at large said...

They’re already here

So you have no problem severely limiting chain migration then? Hey, we have a deal people! The Democrats are willing to drop chain migration!

William Chadwick said...

mockturtle wrote: "Why have we not heard Dems crying for more Cuban immigrants? Could it be because they tend to vote Republican?"

I remember long before the immigration "crisis" started--back when nearly everyone, Democratic or Republican, simply thought the immigration laws that existed were adequate, and should just be enforced--a friend of mine in NYC was working as an ESL teacher and nearly all of his students were from various parts of Latin America. He told me that at first it was surprising that all these "enlightened" Manhattanites he encountered, who normally would be putting their much-vaunted "compassion" and "humanitarianism" on display when it came to immigrants from Third World countries, displayed only poorly-concealed disgust when he said a lot of his students were from Cuba. He couldn't figure it out until he realized: "Oh, that's right. They're anti-socialist." Seeming conundrum solved.

Tim at large said...

Some deplorable racists claim this has something to do with the extermination of white and mixed people from the Haitian part of the island at the time of the successful slave revolt.

Well, there is one indicator that has a very high correlation with shithole countries. “Do they speak French?”

Quebec doesn’t count because they only speak French due to the tolerance of the English, who actually ran the colony after getting sick of the French war making.

Tim at large said...

That’s right! One of Obama’s final acts was to put an end to accepting Cuban refugees! Even as Castro has boats patrolling the waters off of Guantanamo shooting swimmers trying to escape the workers’ paradise!

tcrosse said...

What a day to get shitfaced.

Jonny Scrum-half said...

Vance - Where do you get the idea that Haiti's problems are the fault of a Clinton (not sure if you mean Hillary, Bill, or both)? You might want to check out Haiti's history - it even had some major issues back when Reagan was President (an overthrown government followed a couple years later by a military coup).

Assuming that you're someone who actually cares whether what you write has a basis in fact, do you ever get the feeling that maybe you're being played by right-wing propaganda?

Tim at large said...

Inga had better check back on her talking point depot, because a bill that just grants legal status to those who are already here is considered “hard line” by Democrats.

Looks like you have some studying to do honey!

Chance said...

The idea this needs to be about racism for it to raise red flags about comportment, diplomacy, or fitness for office is striking.

Vance said...

Indeed, if you ask Inga or her fellow compatriots: We need a gazillion Muslims and Mexicans here. What about Cubans or Vietnamese people, who certainly qualify as being oppressed by far left dictatorships? Well, those people never, ever get cries of "we need more of them, poor oppressed souls!" Instead, it's "Support Castro who is gunning them down! Yay Castro!"

Both Vietnamese and Cubans remember who sold them out to slavery--Democrats. And they practically orgasmed watching Vietnamese people die to the communists.

I'm sure Inga did. Nothing seems to make her happier than watching people be murdered by leftists. After all, she says it's torture to even ask her to condemn leftists murdering people. See Hodkinson. By the way, Dick Durbin still refuses to release his emails with that guy. Wonder why? Inga, do you think he should be forced to release his lengthy correspondence with an attempted mass murderer?

--Vance

Tim at large said...

do you ever get the feeling that maybe you're being played by right-wing propaganda?

Do you ever get the feeling that you’re being played by left-wing propaganda? Haiti’s problems were certainly not created by the Clintons, but clearly the Clintons exploited those problems for personal gain.

Bad Lieutenant said...

It's the dishonesty, stupidity
1/12/18, 10:36 AM

Oh no, Chuck, those are only two reasons why nobody here likes or respects or trusts you.

Tim at large said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tim at large said...

If believing in the national right to enforced borders is the same exact thing as dressing up in sheets and lynching some unfortunate soul who happens to be black and offended the “white race" in some way are the exact same thing? Well, fuck you.

Francisco D said...

Vance is on fire today!

He provides a good example of the argument that leftists can no longer muster a cogent argument against libertarians and conservatives because they have devolved into hysteria, name calling and guilt by association.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Haiti has been a shithole since before its' Revolution. It wasn't Reagan's fault either. Blame the frogs. Let the Haitians move there if they want to leave; they'd probably be an improvement compared to what France is importing now. At least Haitians aren't shooting up the Charlie Hebro offices or mowing pedestrians down.

The people of the Dominican Republic don't want Haitians in, for Chrissake. And they share an island.

exiledonmainstreet said...

OK, how's this for a solution? We'll keep all the Haitians and Salvadorians here, and export an equal number of liberals to Haiti and El Salvador. There's an arrangement that should keep everyone happy. After all the liberals don't like Amerikkka much anyway and would be much more comfortable living among black and brown people rather than racist deplorables, amirite?

Dan Hossley said...

Could be a description of Detroit, Baltimore, East St. Louis. Downtown Portland is beginning to look like this with all the homeless camping on the sidewalks.

Jupiter said...

Jonny Scrum-half said...
"You might want to check out Haiti's history - it even had some major issues back when Reagan was President (an overthrown government followed a couple years later by a military coup)."

You think Haiti's problems started in the 80's? you might want to read a little history yourself, Jonny. Haiti's current problems started when the Spanish, having massacred the natives, handed the place over to the French, who imported large numbers of black slaves to work the cane fields. Those slaves conducted a successful rebellion and took the place over, slaughtering or driving away all the white devils. This gave them control of a nice chunk of a nice island, which they decided would make a perfect toilet. And that's what it is to this day. Pretty much the same as every other piece of the planet where the majority of the population is black. You could check it out, Dude.

Jim at said...

“So why do we need a wave of unskilled, uneducated labor then Inga? What is the reason for that?”

They’re already here.
- Inga

So, your answer is to bring more.

Just when I think you've reached peak stupidity.

Jonny Scrum-half said...

Jupiter - what leads you to believe that I think Haiti's problems started in the 1980s? I was responding to Vance's assertion that the Clintons caused Haiti's problems.

You think that every place is a toilet where the majority of the population is black?

Vance said...

Jonny: I merely pointed out that Haiti was raped and pillaged for what little value is there by the Clintons. They have always been a disaster in the Caribbean; the Clinton's just piled on and squashed any green shoots there were. For which the left has celebrated them for ever since, naturally.

--Vance

Freeman Hunt said...

It has been strange to see people pretend that Trump coined the phrase, "shithole country." That was already a fairly common phrase, and it did not have ideological boundaries.

That said, it seems like we'd be more inclined to let people from such places who want to become Americans come here than those who are from pleasant countries and want to keep their old citizenship. So many of our best and proudest citizens are people from shithole countries who longed to live in a great, free country.

People who long to become Americans, who love our freedoms, and know the difference between what it's like to live in a functioning, free place and a shithole are ideal immigrants.

Is there another country where you can become a citizen and you're considered just as much a citizen as anyone else? What a great place.

Gospace said...


Gahrie said...

Yeah...what we should have done instead was to create an organized system of immigration that welcomed millions of poor people from all over the world. We could have set up an immigration center on an island off New York to process those immigrants.


And to immediately send back those who were unhealthy, indigent with no sponsors, or who professed belief in polygamy or other un-American practices.

Have you ever actually studied history? One of the reasons immigration centers were on islands or out of the way places was so immigrants could be quickly sorted out into the desirable and those who are going back immediately.

Bruce Hayden said...

“We want people who have the most to contribute to our society, so people who are coming here from countries with good education and good economic conditions are probably going to give more than people who are living somewhere where it's so terrible that it seems like a good opportunity just to get out of where they are. “

“I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of.”

We don’t though. There are plenty of people willing to work the bottom level jobs, the types that could be filled by illiterate peasants from 3rd world countries. It might work better if we didn’t have minimum wages, but we do. Which means that the least skilled jobs get automated. Amidst all the Tax Reform bonuses being paid, Red Robin just announced that it was eliminating bus boys, thanks to the significant increases in the minimum wage in many of the states it does business in. If we didn’t have a minimum wage so high, and if we didn’t have such a generous welfare system, then it might make sense to bring in more illiterate peasants. But as is, we have generations of our own people, esp in the Black communities, unable to find entry level jobs, because they went to immigrants, and instead, the males resort to crime, and the females breed young in order to get their own welfare checks.

Another part of this is that the best and the brightest coming here have positive life habits. Instead of condoning their young having children instead of graduating from high school, they drive their kids to delay gratification often long enough to acquire graduate degrees. They can be productive in knowledge intensive jobs, and are unlikely to cost in welfare, etc costs what they bring in in taxes.

Another point is that it is far easier to be productive in a job that you are slightly overqualified for, as opposed to being under qualified. And a lot of immigrants from 3rd world countries are not competent to do even the lowliest of jobs in this country. Imagine not knowing the language, not knowing how to run a computer, make change, read instructions, etc. We see this a bit here in AZ with some of the recent Hispanic immigrants who don’t seem to be able to do some of the most basic things. (Though I will admit that it is nice having ready availability to cheap gardening, House cleaning, etc - but you only need so many of such, and the market here is glutted).

buwaya said...

" the Clinton's just piled on and squashed any green shoots there were. "

Actually, I think the Clintons just used Haiti as an excuse to solicit foundation donations, which they kept. In which their donors were complicit. Haiti was just a word.

wendybar said...

Good to know that Obama is racist too...I always felt he was. https://www.buzzfeed.com/matthewchampion/obama-blasts-cameron-for-libya-becoming-a-shit-show?sub=0_8186635&utm_term=.gl1mAJjGr#.sxv091oO4

Rusty said...

Why do I get the impression that Inga is furiously combing the internet for her intelligence.
Just address the questions in your own words, Inga. We'll try and keep up.

Karen said...

And isn't it racist to say that merit-based immigration is racist?

Jupiter said...

Jonny Scrum-half said...

"You think that every place is a toilet where the majority of the population is black?"

Where do you live, Jonny? Detroit? Buffalo? Port-au-Prince? Newark? Camden? South Africa? Philly? Zimbabwe? Baltimore? Nigeria? Gary? Somalia? So many places to choose from.

Craig said...

Exiled said...

Here's another story:

"Report reveals 92 percent of foreign nationals in federal prisons are illegal immigrants"

Yeah, the media focuses on the heartwarming tales and not the crime rates because they know what dumb suckers the Ingas in this country are. Just give them a few heartwarming tales and forget the stats, because logic is boring.

---

Ahahahahaha! Eat it up exiled, eat it up. Please, I might even pay you, explain why you think this number is significant. Please tell us about crime rates and apply logic--I can't wait.

I highly recommend that you take a stats class. (Or, if you have, take another. It clearly didn't work.) And it is clear why you are bad at logic, since you think logic is boring.

Josephbleau said...

“For Haiti? Why Richard, it profit a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world. . . but for Haiti!” Statement of Trump to Durban the Dick.

Josephbleau said...

Quote from the Senate floor from my Senator Durban the Dick,"Describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime–Pol Pot or others–that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners." This was recorded by CSpan and is not hearsay.

Charlie Currie said...

Anyone watching the Netflix show "Stranger Things " - season 2, episode 2 at about the 25 min mark will get a chuckle.

Josephbleau said...

Craig, I have an MS in Statistics, since the GAO reports that 25% of the US prison population are foreign nationals We can conclude that 23% of the US prison population are illegal immigrants, these percentages are population measures so there is no uncertainty to quantify statistically. I don't know if you think 23% is a significant proportion of the US prison population.

Gahrie said...

Have you ever actually studied history?

I teach it.


One of the reasons immigration centers were on islands or out of the way places was so immigrants could be quickly sorted out into the desirable and those who are going back immediately.

So what's your point?

Gahrie said...

Is there another country where you can become a citizen and you're considered just as much a citizen as anyone else?

Nope...and there never has been.

Gahrie said...

You think that every place is a toilet where the majority of the population is black?

Just for the sake of an argument come up with say half a dozen examples that prove this wrong.

Should be pretty easy to do.

Achilles said...

While you are at it I will be nice and only ask that you list a single Muslim Majority country that hasn't recently committed genocide and wiped out at least one minority in it's population.

But if you think about how violent the left is you begin to understand why they want more of these people here(on their side.)

exiledonmainstreet said...

Craig,that was a quote from Drago at 1:06. Why didn't you address him and critique the link he provided?

Before you help me out with stats perhaps you should take a course in reading comprehension

buwaya said...

"While you are at it I will be nice and only ask that you list a single Muslim Majority country that hasn't recently committed genocide and wiped out at least one minority in it's population."

Pakistan. Not that its treated its minorities very well. Its been quite abominable to many of them, if not officially, through "popular" harassment and terrorism. But it hasn't managed to actually wipe out any of them, that I know of, though nearly all the Hindus and Sikhs fled to India.

Malaysia. Ditto, it has treated its minorities quite poorly, or at least very unfairly, but they still persist in large numbers in fact. I credit Malaysia's fairly decent economy to its retaining a very large proportion of Chinese and Indians.

Brunei. Most of its minorities are guest workers, but they are quite decently treated, as these things go. Better than the ME countries save Dubai.

buwaya said...

"Is there another country where you can become a citizen and you're considered just as much a citizen as anyone else?"

This is not a correct position. Quite a lot of countries grant full civil rights to immigrants, if that is the question.

Australia, Canada, most of Europe (Spain and France and Britain, etc.). Most of the 'third world' and developed Asia are extremely restrictive.

exiledonmainstreet said...

And, since Inga is unwilling or (more likely) unable to do so, perhaps Craig can explain to us all how letting in large numbers of illiterate and unskilled people at a time when unskilled laborers are being replaced by robots and machines benefits Americans. Not the Democrat Party. Not the Chamber of Commerce. The country and people as a whole.

All Inga can do is offer her senimental, weepy horseshit about the Statue of Liberty and Thanksgiving because she knows next to nothing about American history



Unknown said...

Irony alert- Years ago, in the late 60s, my neighbor was employed by an oil company doing exploration in the North Sea. He had to spend a month in Norway. He brought some slides for us to see one night. We all looked grimly at the scenes before us. My neighbor noted that “Norway was a shithole, like the war never ended”. Oddly enough my father, a petroleum geologist for a a major oil company, declined a job offer in Stavanger. My mother vetoed the idea.

Angel-Dyne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gahrie said...

This is not a correct position. Quite a lot of countries grant full civil rights to immigrants, if that is the question.

I think he was talking more about acceptance from and assimilation with, the natives rather than legal rights.

Angel-Dyne said...

Lydia: "Shithole" is just the sound-bite. The real problem with what he said is that he doesn't want folks from those places in this country.

Johnny Scrum-half: The problem with Trump's statement isn't that he used a vulgar word, or even that he referred to countries (which generally are in pretty bad shape) as "shitholes." Rather, the issue is that he questioned why we're accepting people from those "shithole" countries, and wondered why we don't take more people from Norway. That's the racist part.

Really, don't you see it?


You're befuddled because you're "not seeing" that other people do not consider "is it racist?" to be the fundamental, over-riding, be-all and end-all "issue" of our immigration policy. (I imagine that any immigration policy that made "what's in it for Americans" the primary consideration would end up being de facto "racist".)

Maybe you and Lydia could put on your big boy pants and try to articulate exactly *why* questioning the wisdom of letting in people from shitholes is A Problem, while letting in people from shitholes simply cannot be A Problem.

Malesch Morocco said...

As my brother Issob Morocco is fond of saying, "Dick Durban before he dicks you"!

n.n said...

The real problem is that he doesn't want to give anti-nativists (e.g. diversitists, abortionists) profit, opportunity, and cover to open abortion fields, force immigration reform, redistribute natural resources, and leave the remains to fester.

Josephbleau said...

Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus. The family motto of Durban the Dick.

n.n said...

Americans invite immigration, after emigration reform, and before Planned Parenthood. They reject progressive liberals' immigration reform that is diversity based (i.e. judges people by the "color of their skin"), and expect an enlightened immigration policy that focus on character and specifically character-alignment (e.g. respect individual dignity, acknowledge intrinsic value), that does not exceed the rate of assimilation and integration, and is not a cover-up (e.g. "clean" wars) of social justice adventures run amuck.

gg6 said...

ALTHOUSE says: "I'm giving this post my "civility bullshit" tag. You know what that means? It means that calls for civility are always bullshit."
Bravo. I'm making this line one of the first entries into my log 'Best Lines of 2018"

Big Mike said...

World's top ten shitholes as chosen by PJMedia. Haiti is number one, of course, and "anyplace ending in "istan" is number two. But Detroit also makes the list, as does New Orleans.

George Spix said...

substitute government for country, and you'll see what T was really saying, except it would be a direct insult to the officials of all the s-h's areas in the US all which could be thriving like Singapore, Vietnam,Japan,Some African Governments, Now China and Malaysia but for their SH government which won't insure property rights, one person one vote and the rule of law equally applied, not as cleverly interpreted by judges that create law. Something they could certainly punt back to their legislature. They could each match or better any first world country. Including those that are quickly losing the quality of life that only free enterprise drive by a free people. with properties and a property in their rights can deliver, Mexico Venezuela, even the U.S.are all on the way down. like Chicago,and Detroitwhat was the wealthiest city in the world. All destroyed by those who think we have so much we can share without insuring that the machine to replace what was shared only grows, pie slice has to get bigger for everyone else there will be nothing left to share.. Term limits on entire governments, laws and regulation, naturally, recycling of resources, death ending corruption for at least for a while.Even better T speaks from the heart what everyone else will think as soon as one of them loses their perks that they think are their god given right,what's left the plebes can fight over. Devil take the hindmost. "I got mine."

William Chadwick said...

I'm not religious, but I find the Bible interesting and have read entirely several translations of the Gospels and ruffled through others. (Sorry, Christian "liberals" and socialists: still haven't found a translation where Jesus endorses coercive wealth redistribution.) As someone raised Catholic, I was mildly shocked when one translator had Jesus using the word "shithole" (or rather the Aramaic equivalent). These days I am wishing I could remember the translator.

Freeman Hunt said...

"This is not a correct position. Quite a lot of countries grant full civil rights to immigrants, if that is the question."

As Gahrie said, yes, I meant acceptance as American. If I obtained French citizenship, for example, no one there would consider me French. But if you become an American citizen, you're as American as anyone else.

sdharms said...

and it means an outhouse.

BUMBLE BEE said...

"You condemn a man for the way he speaks or spells
is this more important than the stories that he tells?"

Recorded by YARDBIRDS 1965 - A major anthem of the sixties "MISTER YOU'RE A BETTER MAN THAN I"

Sissy Willis said...

Thank you, Ann, for cutting through all the crap! :)

Sissy Willis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sissy Willis said...

Thank you, Ann, for cutting through all the crap! :)

Sissy Willis said...

Thank you, Ann, for cutting through all the crap! :)

Sissy Willis said...

Thank you, Ann, for cutting through all the crap! :)

Narayanan Subramanian said...

Let us hope this excursion into Haiti history helps Haitian.

Xhttps://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/france-will-not-repay-haiti-reparations/

Narayanan Subramanian said...

FYI ... Haiti paid France. Jefferson was President.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

Slaves bought their freedom. Slavers lecturing morals.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

Saving Humanity from Institutional Tyranny ... SHIT ... Is now devulgarized. Is political slogan equal of Declaration of Independence.

Jonathan Kurtz said...

Durbin is a dick! Oh, dear... does that make me a homophobe?

Jonathan Kurtz said...

Durbin is a dick! Oh, dear... does that make me a homophobe?

Stephen said...

Professor Althouse:

I hope I am lucky and that you read this.

You are completely correct that standing alone shithole is a perfectly good word with no racial connotation, that one of its meanings is wretched place, and that Haiti can be characterized as a wretched place.

But it does not follow that I should be ashamed for concluding or saying that Trump's words were racist, because Trump's use of shithole did not stand alone and it did not refer only to Haiti.

In fact, Trump apparently described Haiti, El Salvador and every country in Africa as shitholes and he explicitly contrasted those countries with Norway.

Once you expand the focus in that way--as Scott Adams did and as any reasonable person would do--the inference of racism becomes much stronger.

And at that point, it is also completely fair and necessary to consider other evidence concerning the speaker in deciding what was in his mind and heart when he spoke. That evidence might suggest that Trump is not racist, so that the inference of racism is completely unfair. Or it might suggest otherwise. My own conclusion that Trump's comments were racist explicitly takes account of his prior words and actions. I believe that they do not rebut the inference of racism but instead confirm it.

You are a skilled analyst and advocate, so I can only assume that you deliberately decided not to take into account the context in which the word was used and to say nothing about other evidence bearing on the conclusion of racism. That's your choice and I wouldn't go so far as to suggest you should be ashamed of it. But it undermines both your argument and your credibility.

Bad Lieutenant said...


In fact, Trump apparently described Haiti, El Salvador and every country in Africa as shitholes


(Assuming true and correct:) Accurately or inaccurately? Which would you prefer to America, or to any English-speaking country, or even to Spain or Poland or South Korea?


and he explicitly contrasted those countries with Norway.


Whose PM he had just met that very morning, and about whose virtues he had likely been briefed at length.

Whose people have nonetheless stampeded out of their own country into ours for decades, for over a century, till the Norwegian-American population (who have made great contributions to American society, viz., Hans Christian Heg) very nearly equals the native Norwegian population, about 4m vs 5m. (Modern Norwegian prosperity depends almost entirely on the North Sea oil discoveries of the 1960s. Socialism works better with inputs of free money. At least they didn't break it like VZ.)

Who is a member of NATO for Gossake! Who we fought over in WWII!

Why on earth would anyone have positive associations with Norway?


Once you expand the focus in that way--as Scott Adams did and as any reasonable person would do--the inference of racism becomes much stronger.


If you are the one who hears the dog whistle, maybe you're the dog.

I don't know that you'll feel so lucky if/after Althouse treats your remarks.

SDN said...

"Durbin said Trump used the word"

Durbin also directly called American soldiers Nazis on the floor of the Senate. If he's such a font of truth, you must agree with him about that too.

Stephen said...

Bad Lieutenant:

Your defense of Professor Althouse doesn't work on its own terms, because you distort the meaning that she ascribes to the term whose use she defends. Althouse is not saying that a country is fairly described with the word the President used if it is worse than the US, by some standard. She's limiting the term to wretched places. Characterizing every nation in Africa as a wretched place, using a term with fecal overtones, while praising the (white, oil wealthy) Norwegians has a different flavor if you accept her definition, which she sources to the OED.

If there is no inference of racism to be drawn from the context, then why did Scott Adams say that the remarks undeniably sounded racist and why did Lindsay Graham respond to them by saying that the United States is an idea not a race? Both of them are far, far, to my right, yet they clearly saw the potential for an inference of racism. But you do not. OK. But I don't know if Althouse would agree with your arguments or with mine, because she hasn't addressed the context in which the word was used.

You haven't met my second point, which is the relevance of past words and conduct. There are tons of relevant examples, from Trump's comments on a judge of Mexican origin (which Paul Ryan described as a textbook example of racism), to the comments about Mexican immigrants being rapists, etc., to the comments about Charlottesville. I could probably list two dozen, but I doubt they would persuade you. Let me know if you are open to being persuaded, and I'll pass them on.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Stephen, I think this whole discussion is childish, but let's try to humor you.

1. Althouse needs no defense from me or anyone else. I don't speak for her or she for me. I often don't read her stuff through and rarely follow her links, I come mostly for the comments.

2. "not saying...She's limiting" seems a distinction without a difference. As the poet said, “Range me all men of the world in rows," or in this case, the nations. Presumably ranked by some set of criteria, those below a cutoff may be called "shitholes"; and there would be other ranks, both higher and conceivably lower as well.

(For instance, if you believe that Russia is a major instigator of evil in the world, you might view them as worse than little Haiti, which after all immiserates none but themselves. This depends upon your criteria obviously, and it may get to the point of making two lists. Some people on the left, as you describe yourself, might deprecate the US in the same way.)

2a. Truth is a defense. I don't know if you are an American, but as the kids say, that's "how we do" here. So make another list, of all African countries, or all those in the scope of President Trump's actual words (which have only been paraphrased, have not been authenticated, and were not meant for a wider audience), rank for shittiness, and draw your own conclusions. I feel safe in assuming that you, and most people, prefer any European country to any African country. (If not, state your case: Botswana vs Albania, perhaps?)

3. Things sound racist because people are oversensitive. Also as President Trump has faced wide opposition within his own party, due to his shall we say political iconoclasm, many GOPsters have been disinclined to defend him, and also, have fallen out of the habit of defending themselves and us (whence Trump).

4. Catching up to your second point, no, none of the whipped-up, mischaracterized fauxtroversies you name disturb me. The man who blockbusted Palm Beach in the service of blacks and Jews can never be a racist, to me. If he spoke against a Mexican, it's because that Mexican got in his way. Paul Ryan is no friend of the President, or of the United States, in my opinion, or of himself, to lose to Biden in the VP debate. I have no time for such weak sisters.

Your problem, if sincere, is oversensitivity and Caesar's-wife-ism. If not, you are exploiting oversensitivity in the public culture, as cynically as the politician who spoke of his opponent masticating and matriculating and having involvement with thespians. (To save typing, I'm going to assume you know what I'm talking about; if not, let me know.)

5. I also suspect that you would be perfectly hypocritical in your views if the shoe were on the other foot. I think your posts are opportunistic at best. Fortunately I think these tactics will backfire.

6. Black unemployment in the US is at a 30 year low. I think this speaks for itself. Curiously the economic interests of American blacks are diametrically opposed to those of bottom tier immigrants or immigrant manques. Curiously, but not coincidentally.

George Spix said...

I think we misread the intent of “countries. What's meant is "SH governments." Given everyone is born equal the reason all places are not like Norway has nothing to do with the country but their government. Norway buys off their populace with the country's oil wealth, they hide their terrorist behavior of killing in horrific mass production Scale tens of thousands of minorities a century ago with an apology made in 2012. To At say nothing of being the government that embodies the word they invented, “Quisling” to say nothing of the quickest way to get a secret to Russia was to give it to NATO where Norway would have it on a Russian’s desk by that evening. The mass death a century ago was far more than any American atrocity, except if you include the Spanish and Portuguese pogroms in South America including Mexico. I don't know why we'd let anyone in from those SH government places, or ever forgive their past atrocities. Those without SH Governments that respect property rights, rights in your property, and the equal application of the rule of law may stink, but the night soil is collected every night, with that being important and those that do it, and governments that see it is done are deserving of the highest respect. We’ve precision strike weapons that could kill these SH leaders if they don’t go peacefully, think “Marcos.” Then we must deal with our own SH governments. What’s good for one is good for all, especially since T promised to fix our SH governments. Those that Turned Detroit and Chicago from the wealthiest cities in the world into SHs. I favor precision strike, or special forces, if they don’t take the Marcos way out.

veni vidi vici said...

"This is the same man who said that a judge of Mexican descent could not do his job fairly because of his ancestry"

Damned if this isn't the easiest talking point to swat away.

Remember when everyone was creaming their jockeys about how wonderful that "Wise Latina" Sotomayor was when she waxed philosophical about how some other guy couldn't judge correctly certain cases because she's a woman and a Latino?

So please, GFY with your lameness; Trump's comment is no better or worse. In fact, it's exactly the same, except that you hate Trump and love the Wise Latina (TM). That's not virtuous of you, it's being a monotonous ass.

Stephen said...

Bad Lieutenant,

Thanks for the generous response. I'm actually grateful to you for making our differences clear and not concerned that you say I am oversensitive and probably a hypocrite, because you don't know me well enough for those charges to have any sting. (Now if my wife, friends, colleagues and habitual opponents said so, I'd be worried!:)) I'll stop there so both of us can move on to other threads, and I look forward to renewing our conversation on these issues.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Quite right, Stephen, and you're new here and, though odds are against it, may yet turn out to be OK. See you next time.

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