June 24, 2015

"This is not to suggest that all men are rude and unapologetic and that women are the inverse..."

"... but something incongruous is happening in women’s behavior that can’t be chalked up to reflexive politeness. Look at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s new ads warning New York straphangers against inconsiderate behavior, like eating on the subway or manspreading. Graphics depict men displaying almost all these behaviors, except, perhaps in an effort to provide gender balance, the one that advises women to avoid elbows-out personal grooming. The scenario seems ridiculously unrealistic — and not just because it’s the only one I’ve never witnessed firsthand. The ads are saying that men are far less likely to be conscious of personal space than women. So why, even after making ourselves physically smaller on the subway, are we still the ones apologizing?"

From a NYT op-ed by Sloane Crosley titled "Why Women Apologize and Should Stop."

(Please note Crosley recognizes that "I'm sorry" can be a form of assertiveness or passive aggression. And by "Please note," I mean: I bet you knuckleheads are assuming that Crosley thinks women are good and men are bad and therefore her opinion is worthless.)

ADDED: Here's what I really think about Crosley's topic. People expect women to be nicer and judge us more harshly when we strip away the verbal niceties and speak clearly and directly. It's easier to leave all that swaddling around our statements so we don't attract attention where we don't want it. What I'd say to women is: Think about whether and when you want to stop it. Do you want to be known for clear and direct statements? Maybe not!

AND: I remember when it was the man who said "I'm sorry" and the woman who contained the wisdom "Love means never having to say you're sorry."



More recently: "No it doesn't. This movie is drivel. She’s wooden and unpleasant, and no matter what he does, he’s still Ryan O’Neal."

93 comments:

tim in vermont said...

I constantly see rude behavior from females that would possibly get a man into a fight. A lot of times I just chalk it up to cluelessness. Sometimes, they are just rude.

sparrow said...

Since moving to the South I see much less rude behavior in general.

Meade said...

I hate to tell you and please don't take this the wrong way that I hope I'm not annoying you with something you're going to be really mad about but...

MadisonMan said...

Assuming cluelessness rather than rudeness is the magnanimous way to live, but it also makes me feel annoyingly superior to people too. :)

When I hear people complain about things that happen in a city only ("Rescue Helicopters make so much noise!!"), I can only think in reply: Move to the very quiet country and get out of the city.

Don't like Manspreading? Don't like being crammed on a subway? Move to Wausau WI and walk everywhere. There are plenty of perfectly fine jobs outside of metropolitan areas.

You can't have it all.

Scott said...

I see that MTA campaign on the E train almost every day. It really is misandrist.

Meade said...

But, MadMan, and please don't take this the wrong way, but in my opinion, you ARE annoyingly superior to people. Sorry.

MadisonMan said...

I do think, btw, that women in general apologize way too much. Is it rude to ask them what they're apologizing for when they've done nothing wrong when they use that particular idiom?

I normally just keep that thought to myself. If I heard my daughter say it (she doesn't that I know of), though, I'd ask her.

I'm sorry but this isn't what I ordered. Now who would say that, really? Why are you sorry for someone else's mistake? Just say Excuse me, or even better Hey, this isn't what I ordered!

Scott said...

"Please don't take this the wrong way" is a rhetorical cue to take it the wrong way.

Meade said...

Sorry - I meant to say in my HUMBLE opinion. (Hope you didn't take that the wrong way.)

Scott said...

It is the biological imperative of women to dominate every space in which they are present. Everyone who rides the New York city subway knows this.

Scott said...

I love you when you grovel, Meade. ;-)

rhhardin said...

I always assume that women are just having their periods.

MadisonMan said...

I don't mean to offend, but I don't think you're humble opinings are very humble.

Scott said...

Oy, some of them have ellipses.

Original Mike said...

"I'm sorry but this isn't what I ordered. Now who would say that, really? "

I would. It's a more polite and safer form of "You fucking idiot ..."

Meade said...

"I always assume that women are just having their periods."

Mens-spreading.

Original Mike said...

"I do think, btw, that women in general apologize way too much. Is it rude to ask them what they're apologizing for when they've done nothing wrong when they use that particular idiom?"

My wife does this and I do ask her. She says she's just being polite, but it's not polite. Just annoying.

Meade said...

Whatever you do, please, I beg you... do not break just like a little girl .

Michael K said...

Thank God, I have no idea what you all are talking about.

MadisonMan said...

She says she's just being polite, but it's not polite. Just annoying.

"I'm sorry, but you're being annoying by doing that."

I cannot recommend saying that to her after her explanation.

lemondog said...

Manspreading

It cannot go on!!

Ann Althouse said...

"I'm sorry but this isn't what I ordered. Now who would say that, really? Why are you sorry for someone else's mistake? Just say Excuse me, or even better Hey, this isn't what I ordered!"

Well, why say "excuse me" if you haven't done anything wrong?

I'd say, these words are social lubrication, not meant to be take literally. They are a step up from "ahem."

Another way to think about it is that you really are sorry to have to make a complaint. You are literally correct. And you're trying to make them feel doubly bad: 1. for doing the thing that deserves a complaint, and 2. for imposing on you the unpleasant feeling of having to be a complainer.

Phil 314 said...

Isn't "excuse me" an apology? And yet its deemed the best way to get the waiter's attention regarding the salad. And I hear women AND men use that phrase all the time.

My wife does use the "I'm sorry..." and it IS irritating because it implies I'm offended.

Original Mike said...

"I cannot recommend saying that to her after her explanation."

Too late.

dbp said...

" So why, even after making ourselves physically smaller on the subway, are we still the ones apologizing?""

Oh, nice to know that women are smaller due to will-power rather than genetics. In terms of what you can control, my non-scientific observation is that women have a higher rate of obesity than men.

Tank said...

Mrs. Tank is rarely sorry.

But I have a friend, a guy, who is always f*****g sorry. He's a great guy, but it makes me want to punch him. I think I will punch him and tell him to stop saying he's sorry. Ah, he'll probably just apologize. Yes, I'm sure. If I punch him and tell him to stop apologizing, he'll definitely say he's sorry.

Meade said...

"When I hear people complain about things that happen in a city only ("Rescue Helicopters make so much noise!!"), I can only think in reply: Move to the very quiet country and get out of the city."

Or... petition your City Council and try to get the rescue helicopters to fly only over the parts of the neighborhood where people LOVE the sound of rescue helicopters — over MadisonMan's house!

MadisonMan said...

(laugh)

People know where the Hospital is. They know where the interstates are and Hwy 12, 14 and 151. You can therefore predict flight paths when looking for a house. My house is not under those flight paths. Flying over my house would consume extra fuel and would not be a 'green alternative'.

I'm sorry, but your suggestion Meade would contribute to Global Warming.

Henry said...

Who needs facts when you have ads?

I rarely see rude behavior on the Boston T (nor on the MTA in very minimal experience). Perhaps the most common bumping and jostling comes from people wearing backpacks (which is called out in the ads) or carrying large bags (which isn't). The large bag hangs from a shoulder strap. When the train crowds up, the person with the large bag uses her elbow to shove it onto the back of her hip. The large bag hits a seated person in the side of the head.

I recently spent some time working in Shanghai. The Shanghai citizens are very polite, but you don't use the metro -- or cross the street -- expecting anyone to watch out for your personal space. When the metro stops everyone exits and boards at once and jostling is the way it happens. The metro authorities run small videos showing people kindly waiting and making room for each other. These have no effect.

If I were to write a New York Times op-ed based on images shown in the Shanghai Metro courtesy campaign I could invent an entire fiction without having to apologize to anyone.

Larry J said...

Shorter version: "Men are bad. Women are good."

Nothing more needs to be said.

Big Mike said...

I'll read Crosley's article later, but for now let me just note that not all women are sweetness and light, for instance this anesthesiologist at a Northern Virginia hospital.

Christopher said...

I had a tendency to do this growing up.

It was never actually about fault but was simply either a starting point for giving a person bad news ("Sorry but the picnic was cancelled due to rain") or simply a generic response showing sympathy ("I'm sorry your team lost").

Ann Althouse said...

Larry J choses to be the person identified in the post as a knucklehead.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Phil 3:14 said...

Isn't "excuse me" an apology?

Not the way Steve Martin says it. ( Wish I could look for a clip to link )

MadisonMan said...

for instance this anesthesiologist at a Northern Virginia hospital.

I would not have awarded the patient a thing. So he was mocked? BFD. Did the colonoscopy work well?

Doing colonoscopies day in and day out must be all sorts of tedious. Trash-talking is a way to relieve boredom. Unprofessional? Sure. Actionable? Not in my opinion.

Was the diagnosis of Hemorrhoids false, or not? The article isn't clear.

The reason stated for awarding him damages is pretty feeble, IMO.

Michael said...

Althouse
"People expect women to be nicer and judge us more harshly when we strip away the verbal niceties and speak clearly and directly. "

Not in my world.

I think God every day that I do not live in a university town.

Alexander said...

Don't see it. My observations are men are much more socially conscious of their surroundings, probably because mouthing off or pushing through a group could get you punched in the face and bystanders just shrugging and saying he earned it. Women throw all sorts of shit in public because they don't believe anyone is going to hold them accountable for it.

Seriously, we're at the point now where women are heading to the fainting couches over a man's sitting posture. Hell with that.

Bruce Hayden said...

I do think that many of these problems are the result of living too closely packed together. One of the things I look at is how do the drivers in the cars react to pedestrians. When I was living in NW NV, the cars and trucks would screech to a halt on US 95 (two lanes either way) when you put your foot on the street, or was on the curb by a crosswalk. It is worse now in NW MT, if that is possible. A lot of motioning for the other guy to go first. No, you go first. Etc. And, no, it isn't because everyone owns guns there. Rather it reminds me a bit of having watched two high school girls trying to make sure that the other one ends up with the aloe they bought jointly. And if your hood is up, in MT, you will quickly get assistance, sometimes turning into a social event. (Happened to me a couple weeks ago, when I undid the cap to the cooling system on my truck while it was still under pressure, and I was looking for the cap). But then you go to a big city and almost die before you switch to big city rules, which include only crossing streets at crosswalks with the signal.

The scary thing to me is that Obama and his HUD are trying to pack us more and more densely into bigger and bigger cities. I think that their progressive justification is Anthropogenic Global Cooling/Warming/Climate Change/Etc. which is one reason they go to such lengths to fudge the data there. But mostly, I think it is because the Dem power base is typically big city political machines, and the more people packed closely together, the greater their power.

MayBee said...

I'd say, these words are social lubrication, not meant to be take literally. They are a step up from "ahem."

Exactly!

Perhaps there is womanpologizing like there is mansplaining. But that would sound like there are things women do that are annoying to men. And that can't be!

In general, men are more direct in their communications and women more indirect. Listen to a group of guy friends having a dispute vs a group of women having a dispute.

So, a guy might say, "Hey! You got my order wrong!" and feel very normal about it. But that would feel confrontational to me.

Here's what I try to do, in general: Assume the other person is doing the best they can, right at that moment. Assume they are *not* doing what they are doing because of you (to annoy you, to slow you down, etc).

tim in vermont said...

"Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy." - Ambrose Bierce

Original Mike said...

"Here's what I really think about Crosley's topic. People expect women to be nicer and judge us more harshly when we strip away the verbal niceties and speak clearly and directly."

Here's what I really think about Crosley's topic. Women have this strange idea that speaking clearly and directly is rude.

rhhardin said...

The excuse me, if you want to know, is for a woman entering men's social space.

Women are at home in their own space.

Bob Boyd said...

While the woman is explaining to the man why he should not spread his legs, the man is thinking, How could I get this sassy little gal to spread her legs?

Meade said...

"I'm sorry, but your suggestion Meade would contribute to Global Warming. "

But I don't WANT to be a bad person!

Bob Boyd said...

"But I don't WANT to be a bad person!"

It's not really up to you anymore.

Bay Area Guy said...

Another reason not to read the NY Times - pointless essays by confused women on proper manners.

If you don't like your salad, by all means, send it back. Just don't write about the ordeal, Snowflake.

Scott said...

"Another reason not to read the NY Times - pointless essays by confused women on proper manners."

I think the author may actually be a man. Like Sloane Coffin.

Bruce Hayden said...

The women in my life think that I am rude in public. One of my big offenses is intrusion into other people's personal space or their bubbles. What I tell them is that they are operating under female rules, while I operate under male rules. Male rules partially revolve around dominance displays, while female rules revolve around not triggering male dominance displays, because most women are not big enough or strong enough to compete with men on this level. Why do women smile so much more? Same reason - to diffuse male aggression. What is manspreading? At its most egregious, a male sexual display, whose purpose can be to sexually intimidate women (note though, it is a tactic used by low status males, not high status ones).

Let me point out here that denying males the ability to engage in dominance displays, or even to compete for dominance is very stressful. And that may be part of why living in rural America is very often much less stressful than living in dense urban environments. Making this maybe worse, female rules are preferred in that case, since they make living so closely packed together more congenial, as indicated by all the things you aren't supposed to do on the subway. But, it isn't going to work, because young males tend to have high levels of testosterone. Living under female rules is emasculating, which means that the only way to get good conformity with those rules is through the threat of or the application of state sanctioned violence.

Scott said...

"At its most egregious, [man spreading is] a male sexual display, whose purpose can be to sexually intimidate women (note though, it is a tactic used by low status males, not high status ones)."

More typically, it's a guy with large testicles and fat thighs trying to sit comfortably without squeezing his scrotum.

Original Mike said...

"Male rules partially revolve around dominance displays,"

Do you really believe this or are you pulling our leg?

William said...

I never saw Love Story. I watched that brief clip. Wow, that was stupendously bad. Not all my life decisions were regrettable, although I did see the Poseidon Adventure........I have never criticized a woman for spreading her legs. That's not the way they violate your space. What they do is spread their shopping parcels on the seats next to them, instead of putting them on the floor......And what's up with those grotesquely over priced and oversized womb symbols called handbags. Ironically their womb symbols are far more invasive than the average phallic symbol.

Bay Area Guy said...

"Love means never having to say you're sorry."

Of all the profoundly moronic slogans from the 60s, this one might take the prize.

Anyone who's been in love knows that sometimes you say or do things that hurts someone's feelings. The single best way to fix hurt feelings is to say "Hey, my bad, I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry about that, will you forgive me? I"ll try not to do that again"

And, for it to work, the hurt party should pause, acknowledge the offer and accept the apology, as soon as they get it together.

I apologize often both to my wife and kids, especially after I lose my temper. I expect them to do the same. In general, this breeds very good, healthy relations. Love means apologizing a lot because we make so many mistakes.

The moronic dialogue in "Love Story" is a misdirection. Ryan O'Neal is not really offering an apology. He's saying "sorry" to show empathy, which is a good thing, albeit an imprecise expression. Instead of lecturing him, she should have just shut up and hugged him or said "thank you, I love you." Hollywood + 1960s wisdom = really bad movies, really bad ideas.

Bruce Hayden said...

The snowflake comment got me thinking that maybe the current college emphasis on micro aggressions, trigger warnings, etc., is an attempt to feminize a generation of future decision makers. The lower classes, of course, being much too course, and more importantly, not living through this indoctrination in their formative years, as their betters have, will likely not participate. But that is fine, because those properly indoctrinated will be the ones making the laws and deciding which ones to enforce, in a generation or so.

Of course, if they weren't all progressive drones, they would realize that this is still a violent dangerous world, and that there are a lot of people who think that beheading, or the like, is a fine way to enforce their (7th century) morality. How does someone brought up to respect micro aggressions effectively respond to this level of violence?

Matt Sablan said...

"I'm sorry but this isn't what I ordered."

-- In this case you're expressing that you are unhappy, but you're not angry, or livid or any other thing. You're disappointed, but you know it may not be the waiter's fault -- no one may be at fault. You're using sorry in the "feeling distress" or "compassion for another's discomfort" meaning.

I'd use "Excuse me," since the "I'm sorry" is really being used to mean, "Hey, pay attention for a moment, I have something to say."

Big Mike said...

Okay, Professor, I got around to reading the article. Normally I make it a practice to skip drivel written by people with two last names, but for you I made an exception.

And I'm sorry I did.

I think Ms. Crosley is confusing being polite with being weak. That's a common mistake that stupid creatures like New Yorkers make. In my own experience there's nothing better for getting a waiter to bring an extra fork to my table than the phrase "I beg your pardon, but ..."

Matt Sablan said...

"Isn't "excuse me" an apology?"

-- Excuse me isn't an apology. It is a way of letting someone know that you would like their attention/to pass through. It's the equivalent of pardon me without sounding pretentious.

Larry J said...

Blogger Ann Althouse said...

Larry J choses to be the person identified in the post as a knucklehead.


No, just pointing out that this is yet another in a seemingly endless supply of "Men are bad, women are good" articles.

MadisonMan said...

What's Up Doc is a far better movie than Love Story. If you're in to ranking Ryan ONeal movies.

Matt Sablan said...

When it comes to public rudeness, I note that the two biggest problems on the Metro in D.C. are:

1. People with giant bags not watching where the bag is going.
2. People with more than one bag taking up loads of space during rush hour.

#1 is solved by taking your bag off and putting it between your legs as you stand. You take up marginally more hip room, but clear a lot of room at your sides, and have the bag under control so it doesn't whack people.

#2 is solved by people packing their stuff tighter. This is usually a thing I see with office women. They have their backpack, purse, second purse, exercise bag, a bag I don't know what it is for. She's carrying five bags, and they're all going different directions whenever the train stops! And if she sits down, no one can use the seat next to her.

Carry less stuff during rush hour!

kcom said...

I think certain commenters, and professors, live in such a bubble that they don't realize there are all kinds of women in the world acting in all kinds of ways. Not all women are comfortably upper class, polite, well-dressed, deferential models of public propriety. Thinking that it's so is just one more example of upper class white (dare I say it) feminists thinking their world is the only world.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"I always assume that women are just having their periods"

God bless you.

"I'd say, these words are social lubrication, not meant to be take literally. They are a step up from "ahem."

Exactly, so I'm surprised this is even considered worth discussing. As Bruce H. notes above, most people are indifferent to this kind of navel-gazing.

Bruce Hayden said...

Big Mike - I notice when the women in my life complain that I am standing too close to someone, etc, that I ask myself why am I giving this stranger such defference? Why should I step back? What have they done to deserve it? And that is when I realize that my male hormones, and drive for male dominance are kicking in. I should note that said hormones have decreased with age to such extent that I actually realize what I am doing, and have been doing for the 50+ years since puberty.

Intruding into someone's personal space is a mark of dominance. It is the sort of thing that bosses an do, but not subordinates. Etc. When I intrude into someone's space, it is almost always guys who take offense. But the surprising thing is how rare it is for me to get called on it. Interesting to me is that the reason that this continues is that I may no longer be seen as a somewhat dominant male, but more and more as a harmless older man. So now, I can get away with it by claiming weak vision, etc.

madAsHell said...

I watched the 20 second clip of Ali MacGraw. She's a honky. Did she honk her way through the whole movie??

Scott said...

"Carry less stuff during rush hour!"

Most of us who work in offices are issued notebook computers and are required to take them with us between work and home. Hence all the backpacks and bags on the buses and subways.

Matt Sablan said...

"Why should I step back? What have they done to deserve it?"

-- In general, I don't like being close to people I don't know in public because I don't want to talk to them. Two arm lengths is a polite bubble of distance, and if there's no need to get closer, I don't. On Metro trains I try to squash as tiny as I can, and nothing torments me more when I get squashed between two people and there is LOADS of room to the sides.

Matt Sablan said...

"Most of us who work in offices are issued notebook computers and are required to take them with us between work and home."

That's two bags. That's not bad. I'm talking about the people with more bags than fingers on one hand.

Matt Sablan said...

"Two arm lengths is a polite bubble of distance"

-- So yes, if you're tiny, you get less space. Deal with it.

lemondog said...

Women are at home in their own space.

lemondog said...

Isn't "excuse me" an apology?

It can be done submissively or done in an aggressive/sarcastic manner or tone as in, excuuuse ME (for interrupting you) but......

Roughcoat said...

"Knucklehead"?! Hah! Haven't heard that one in years.

Reminds me of Jerry Mahoney and Knucklehead Smith.

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Known Unknown said...

big city rules, which include only crossing streets at crosswalks with the signal.

Cross with the signal? HA! Yeah, that's what New Yorkers do.

Known Unknown said...

Women do say "I'm sorry" too often. My wife does it and it actually makes me a bit mad sometimes. I just tell her she has nothing to apologize for.

In fact, I just got an email from a young female client that started with "Sorry" even though the problem we had was our fault.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I will apologize, profusely, to anyone, at anytime, for the mere fact of my very existence, so that means that about a dozen other guys can be complete ass-wipes and the sum total of male rudeness remains the same.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Larry J said...
Blogger Ann Althouse said...

Larry J choses to be the person identified in the post as a knucklehead.

No, just pointing out that this is yet another in a seemingly endless supply of "Men are bad, women are good" articles.


Larry J, just accept it. You're bad. You're a "knucklehead". One of the men in society. Bad bad bad.

You can't escape it.

lemondog said...

Eric the Fruit Bat said...
I will apologize, profusely, to anyone, at anytime, for the mere fact of my very existence,...


So.... we're waiting.........

Larry J said...

eric said...
Blogger Larry J said...
Blogger Ann Althouse said...

Larry J choses to be the person identified in the post as a knucklehead.

No, just pointing out that this is yet another in a seemingly endless supply of "Men are bad, women are good" articles.


Larry J, just accept it. You're bad. You're a "knucklehead". One of the men in society. Bad bad bad.


That was mighty rude of Ann to say so, but then she's a law professor. Rude behavior comes with the job description.

Phil 3:14 said...
Isn't "excuse me" an apology? And yet its deemed the best way to get the waiter's attention regarding the salad. And I hear women AND men use that phrase all the time.


Used in this context, "excuse me" isn't an apology but a social convention. It's more polite than saying something like, "Hey, you! Come here and do your freaking job!" It's also much less likely to result in spit in your meal or beverage.

damikesc said...

With all of the new hitching...good luck on "popularizing" mass transit amongst men.

damikesc said...

Bitching, not hitching.

MayBee said...

You want to worry about your personal space being invaded? Take the Tokyo subway at rush hour. They even have pushers at the door, to push more people in. They wear nice white gloves, so it seems very polite as they push you body to body, cheek to cheek with your fellow passengers.

Bay Area Guy said...

Calling someone a "knucklehead" could be construed as a microaggression. It suggests violence (knuckles of a fist hitting a head). It also unfairly stigmatizes the differently-abled by insinuating that the person has learning deficiencies and/or mental illness. This likely violates both the American with Disabilities Act and Title IX of the Civil Rights Act, insofar as the epithet is almost exclusively used against the male gender.

This is fun! Can I be left-wing college agitator now?

Meade said...

Bruce Hayden said...

"I notice when the women in my life complain that I am standing too close to someone, etc, that I ask myself why am I giving this stranger such defference? Why should I step back? What have they done to deserve it? And that is when I realize that my male hormones, and drive for male dominance are kicking in."

Or, as rhhardin might put it, you are just having your period?

tim in vermont said...

One of the reason that I let female rudeness pass is that I know that it has to do with the fact that they are triggering a male response in me that they are completely oblivious to, in most cases.

I also know that, as a man, I am required to maintain the utmost awareness of any behaviors I might have that may possibly offend the fairer sex in any way.

It has to do with the fact that men are always trying to get laid, and women are often shopping for sexual partners, and even after a lifetime of failure, and on his deathbed, a man is still saying to himself about an attractive nurse, "Ya never know!"

Gahrie said...

I do think, btw, that women in general apologize way too much.

It's a form of passive-aggression.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

How sad is it that we have to have posters to remind people to mind their fucking manners? Or maybe is it just that in a culturally diverse city you're dealing with a lot of different norms? The big farmer's market I go to usually has a large crowd of (what I think are) 1st gen Asian & African immigrants--and those ladies will absolutely knock you on your ass if you're even a little bit in their way. I don't think they mean to be rude, and since they're the majority in that building maybe it's my expectations that are wrong.

How much of this comes down to people not being willing to talk to each other? "Excuse me, sir, but would you mind closing your legs so that I can sit next to you?" Does that not work--is that dangerous? Or is it too much to expect people to talk to one another? Better to have a sign, silently glower, and take surreptitious cell phone pictures so you can internet-shame the person later. So much more self-righteous feeling!

damikesc said...

One of the reason that I let female rudeness pass is that I know that it has to do with the fact that they are triggering a male response in me that they are completely oblivious to, in most cases.

That's why the big trick is not care and realize that women are as slutty as men. Don't waste time with niceties.

ken in tx said...

Can we please get women to stop ending every statement with a question mark, as if she is asking permission to speak? It is so annoying. My wife has started doing it since she retired last year. She didn't do it before. I think it is because of TV.

Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay. Don't surround everything you say with a bunch of shrubbery.

Sebastian said...

"People expect women to be nicer and judge us more harshly when we strip away the verbal niceties and speak clearly and directly. It's easier to leave all that swaddling around our statements so we don't attract attention where we don't want it. What I'd say to women is: Think about whether and when you want to stop it. Do you want to be known for clear and direct statements? Maybe not!"

"People" don't expect this.

People do expect women to go on and on about how they are expected to be nicer, and to confuse pointless apologizing with "being nicer."

And some women do indeed use apologies very clearly and directly to 1. get their way and 2. put those rude, direct men down.

@LarryJ: "Shorter version: "Men are bad. Women are good." Nothing more needs to be said."

Not very nice.

Brando said...

The urge to automatically apologize is hard to overcome--I'm guilty of it all the time. Someone bumps into me, I usually blurt out "sorry" without thinking "hey this is their fault". I apologize if I have to complain at a restaurant (or make any extra request) not because I've done something wrong, but because I have to inconvenience someone. It makes me sound like a softy, but I like to think it also shows I acknowledge the other person's time and bother.

As for subways and metros, rude behavior is pretty evenly divided between genders--loud phone talkers, seat spreaders, personal space violators, shovers. If you think it's mostly the other gender doing it, you're probably not as self aware as you think you are.

Matt Sablan said...

"If you think it's mostly the other gender doing it, you're probably not as self aware as you think you are."

-- Certain offenses are particular to one gender or another. Women are much less likely to sit with their legs spread apart because, well, a lot of them are wearing skirts, for example.

Matt Sablan said...

Maybe not "particular" but "more likely to be done by one gender than another."

Brando said...

True, but women still have a way of spreading out--say using their bags or putting their feet up on the seat.

The lesson of course is everyone should try to use consideration and good manners, especially if you're in a city where you have to confront people regularly.

Shawn Levasseur said...

More accurately:

"Being a New Yorker means never having to say you're sorry."
- Lily Tomlin (in a Saturday Night Live monologue)